Chapter 2403
The Ming Dynasty's current way of dealing with internal and external wars is not much different from its original history. Most of the measures taken are helpless and ineffective. Although Haihan's intervention effectively slowed down the Manchu Qing's march south to invade the Ming Dynasty, it was not enough to change the historical trend. The Ming Dynasty, which was suffering from internal and external troubles, was still slowly sliding into the abyss of collapse.
Although ministers like Lu Xiangsheng wanted to serve the country, their influence was limited and they were unable to persuade the emperor and the court to change their strategy, put aside the pretense of going to court in heaven, and seek joint foreign aid to fight against the Manchus. All Lu Xiangsheng could do was probably to raise as much military expenditure as possible and try to find Haihan to buy some arms to arm his troops.
Daming believed that joining forces with Haihan would harm his own interests. However, other people were eager to do things that Daming was unwilling to do, and their attitudes were much more proactive than Daming's. Daming may not understand the benefits of cooperating with Haihan, but others have already clearly calculated the pros and cons.
The one who took the initiative to find Haihan was not the North Korean state who had just completed the transfer of power, but the Manchu Qing Dynasty who had just taken away a lot of wool from the Ming Dynasty. Before Chen Yixin returned to Shandong from Jinzhou, the Manchu Qing Dynasty had appointed Shang Kexi to contact Chen Yixin in an attempt to initiate armistice peace talks with Haihan. Although Shang Qing, a close confidant sent by Shi Kexi to Jinzhou at that time, hit a snag with Chen Yixin, it did not make Shang Kexi completely give up on this direction. After the Qing army withdrew from the Ming Dynasty, Shang Kexi once again asked Shang Qing to come to Jinzhou to ask for a meeting with General Haihan.
At this time, Qian Tiandun was temporarily on duty in Jinzhou on behalf of Chen Yixin. Chen Yixin had informed him earlier about Shang Kexi's pursuit of peace talks, so Qian Tiandun was not surprised by the visit of the Manchu envoy. And he was also a little curious about what kind of conditions the Manchu Qing faction represented by Shang Kexi could offer.
Although Haihan and the Manchus have been at war with the Qing Dynasty in the past few years, and they fight several battles almost every year, the two countries still maintain a certain tacit understanding regarding the exchange of envoys during the truce. After all, the two sides will fight again and again. Exchanges of prisoners of war, bones, relics, etc. must also be completed through communication. It's just that one of the parties has taken the initiative to negotiate an armistice and peace talks, which has never happened in the past few years.
"When you came here last time, I think General Chen made our country's attitude clear to you. Are you planning to bring up the old issues again this time?" Qian Tiandun asked expressionlessly.
Shang Qing responded: "General Qian, when General Chen met with the villain last time, he did express his unwillingness to engage in armistice peace talks with our country. But my prince is grateful that successive years of war have brought too much harm to the people of Li, and he still hopes to continue Let’s discuss with your country to resolve the conflicts as soon as possible so that the people can live in peace.”
Qian Tiandun sneered: "Does Shang Kexi really think so? But as far as I know, the 100,000 Qing troops who invaded the Ming Dynasty at the end of last year have just withdrawn from the Ming Dynasty. It is said that the Qing troops kidnapped several people during this invasion. There are hundreds of thousands of people in the Ming Dynasty. Huang Taiji has no intention of letting the people of the Ming Dynasty live in peace!”
Shang Qing's psychological quality is very good. He was not confused at all when he was criticized in person. He calmly responded to Qian Tiandun's accusation: "The people my prince mentioned naturally refer to the people of our Qing Dynasty and your country, not the people of Qing Dynasty and your country. Including the people of the Ming Dynasty. Besides, the Ming Dynasty has been experiencing constant civil strife in recent years, and the court has been unable to quell the rebellion of the peasant armies in various places. These people who were taken away by our country may not be able to live in peace even if they stay in the Ming Dynasty. Instead, you can live a peaceful life without war.”
"Come on, we all know what the situation was like in the Manchu and Qing Dynasties, and how the Han people in the Ming Dynasty were treated in the Qing Dynasty. The Han people who were captured in the war would only become slaves when they went to the Manchu and Qing Dynasties, and were driven and exploited by the Manchus. , can this be considered a peaceful life?" Qian Tiandun sneered at Shang Qing's remarks and immediately debunked them.
Seeing Qian Tiandun's unkind tone, Shang Qing quickly defended: "General Qian is talking about the old almanac. The emperor of our country has already stipulated that each manor can only retain a maximum of eight Han Aha, and the rest of the Han people are classified as The same is true for ordinary households and the Han people captured in the war. Moreover, our country has also allocated a large amount of land to the Han people in Liaodong to engage in agriculture. Your country has sent troops to the Liaodong coast many times. The emperor must also be aware of this. By appointing Han people as officials, there are now many important Han officials serving in the court, and there is no barrier between Manchu and Han people. ”
Qian Tiandun said: "When you talk about important Han ministers, do you mean Fan Wencheng, Ning Wanwo, and Prince Sanshun including your prince? Yes, these people did gain power and status in the Manchu Qing Dynasty. , but the reason why they are treated like this is because they betrayed the Ming Dynasty!”
Shang Qing continued to argue: "Good birds choose trees to roost, and good ministers choose their masters to serve. This is a wise move. Besides, this kind of thing is not unique to our country. As far as I know, many officials in your country also They all came from the Ming Dynasty and are now loyal to Haihan. Is there anything wrong with this? ”
Qian Tiandun was speechless for a moment. He did not expect that the envoy was so eloquent and so good at eloquent arguments. But there is some truth in what Shang Qing said. A large part of the reason for Haihan's rapid rise was the absorption of a large number of resources, including talents, from the Ming Dynasty. Among them, there were indeed some officials from the Ming Dynasty who changed their jobs and joined Haihan. It's just that Haihan's hostility to the Ming Dynasty was not as strong as the Manchu Qing Dynasty, so the harm caused to the Ming Dynasty by the people recruited by Haihan was naturally not as great as that of Shang Kexi and others.
But from Qian Tiandun's point of view, he has always rejected the possibility of peace talks with the Manchus. Regardless of whether he can argue with the other side, he will not list peace talks as the first option. And the fallacies listed by Shang Qing made him feel even more unhappy.
Shang Qing observed the words, but did not continue the topic to embarrass Qian Tiandun. Instead, he said: "Actually, in addition to having ministers from the Ming Dynasty serve, our country and your country also have many similarities. For example, they are both from recent times. It took only a few years for them to expand their national power and compete with the Ming Dynasty. They all have close contacts with North Korea, and they all advocate the use of force to open borders... If you want to break down the details, the two countries will definitely find more things in common. "
Qian Tiandun responded solemnly: "There are similarities, but no common interests. I think your country should have seen clearly that our two countries have irreconcilable conflicts of interest in the Liaodong region, and war is inevitable unless it is One of us is willing to bow our head and admit defeat and give up some of our interests in exchange for peaceful coexistence.”
If you want peace talks, you must first admit defeat. This is the precondition Qian Tiandun set for peace talks. But this was not a condition that the Manchus could accept calmly.
Shang Qing said: "Actually, our country is very sincere in making some concessions in exchange for peace, but the conditions put forward by General Chen on behalf of your country last time were too outrageous. If General Qian thinks that our two countries can achieve peace through negotiation, then he might as well We calmly review our respective interests in the Liaodong region and see which areas of conflict can be resolved through negotiation.”
When Chen Yixin met Shang Qing last time, he opened his mouth and made an extremely exaggerated condition, which required the Qing army to retreat to the north of the line connecting the Daliao River and the Yalu River estuary, and cede control of the entire Liaodong Peninsula to Haihan . It was naturally impossible for the Manchus to agree to such conditions, but Shang Kexi did not want to give up the possibility of peace talks, so after careful planning, he sent Shang Qing to Jinzhou as a lobbyist.
Shang Qing thought that changing the person in charge of Jinzhou at this time might help the negotiations, but he did not expect that Qian Tiandun's position was almost the same as Chen Yixin's, and his antipathy towards the Manchus was even more firm. It is not easy to get Qian Tiandun to relent. If Qian Tiandun hadn't been idle, he wouldn't have spent so much time arguing with Shang Qing. Hearing this, he said: "Then tell me what kind of conditions your prince has offered. If you want our country to withdraw, Jinzhou, or draw a clear line with the Ming Dynasty, then there is no need to say.”
When Shang Qing came to discuss with Chen Yixin last time, he was already thrown away by the outrageous conditions offered by Chen Yixin before he even got to the point of revealing his conditions. But this time Qian Tiandun was actually willing to listen to his conditions, which was quite a progress.
Shang Qing thought about it for a while, and then said: "My prince also knows that your country has many interests in the Ming Dynasty, and it is probably impossible to draw a clear line with the Ming Dynasty. As for letting the Haihan army withdraw from Jinzhou, my prince does not expect it. You can get results that you can't get on the battlefield through negotiation, so the general doesn't have to worry about our country proposing such unreasonable conditions."
Qian Tiandun heard what he said was reasonable, so he nodded slightly and motioned for him to continue.
Shang Qing continued: "As the general said just now, there are two main reasons for the conflict between our Qing Dynasty and your country. One is that both of our countries want to compete for control of the Liaodong region; the other is that the conflict between our two countries Lack of common interests. If we can solve these two problems together, is it possible to live in peace? ”
Qian Tiandun knew as soon as he heard that the other party was well prepared this time. It was obvious that he had carefully analyzed the situation of the two countries based on various intelligences before he could conclude these two key points. Although Haihan's hostile attitude towards the Manchus was partly due to the inherent ideology of the time travellers, in the final analysis the main reason was due to conflicts of interest.
The development of Haihan requires a relatively stable sales market and resource supply area, and the Qing army's continuous invasion of Ming Dynasty will seriously damage the trade environment needed by Haihan, which will inevitably create a conflict of interest with Haihan. As for the Qing army's invasion of northern Ming Dynasty and North Korea, it also hindered Haihan's long-term strategy in Northeast Asia to some extent. Since these actions were already in a place where Haihan could project troops on a large scale, they would naturally not affect Haihan's long-term strategy in Northeast Asia. The Qing army stood aside and watched.
However, Haihan and the Manchus had only hostile relations from the beginning of their contact and had no trade contacts. Naturally, they could not say they had any common interests at all. From the perspective that both countries are absorbing resources from the Ming Dynasty, they are even competitors, but Haihan's methods are relatively mild.
Qian Tiandun asked calmly: "How does your country plan to solve these two problems?"
Shang Qing said: "The first thing is to stop the war in Jinzhou, and then start formal peace talks. The location can be in Jinzhou or the capital of our country."
Shang Qing knows that he speaks lightly, and if he really wants to start formal negotiations with the Haihan people, it probably won't be his turn to come forward. Therefore, he did not immediately offer conditions to Qian Tiandun, but observed Qian Tiandun's reaction while speaking.
Qian Tiandun didn't respond, as if waiting for him to continue. But as long as Qian Tiandun didn't interrupt, Shang Qing was thankful and quickly continued: "To resolve the conflict between the two countries, we need to discuss it with big shots like General Qian and my prince. I don't dare to say too much at this time. But The villain has some ideas about creating common interests. Your country is good at cross-sea trade, and the area under our control is rich in products. If we can sell them to the south by sea, we will definitely gain a lot. If your country can consider cooperation in this area. , then the two countries can completely turn Jinzhou into a big trading city and rely on the port here to exchange goods between the north and the south. Isn't this a common interest? "
After hearing this, Qian Tiandun couldn't help but sigh: "It seems that you have an expert's guidance behind you!"
Shang Qing was not sure whether Qian Tiandun's words were praise or criticism, so he could only say a few polite words at the moment. His idea was indeed not something he said casually. It was a strategy formulated by the Han think tank in the Manchu and Qing Dynasty specifically based on the characteristics of Haihan.
Qian Tiandun said: "You may think that Haihan people will accept any business as long as it is profitable. But this is not the case. The interests we consider are not only financial income, but also many other factors."< br>
Shang Qing said: "General, there is no need to speak too harshly early. Although our Qing Dynasty is located in a bitter cold land in the north, its treasury is full and there are many goods that we want to trade with your country. If our two countries can establish trade relations, we will definitely It will be of great benefit to each other. Your country and the impoverished North Korea can still cooperate. Our situation in the Qing Dynasty is hundreds of times better than that of North Korea. Your country can send people to our country for on-site inspection before making a decision. ”
Shang Qing's words are not bragging. The rich products in Liaodong can almost cover all the needs of Haihan at this stage. Although the social productivity of the Manchu and Qing Dynasties is backward, the wealth they have robbed back from neighboring countries over the years is endless. Numbers, and nowhere to spend them, will also give Haihan's various industrial products great sales potential.
Of course, no need for Shang Qingming to say, Qian Tiandun can also think of what Haihan products the Manchus were most interested in. The Qing army and the Haihan army have been fighting for several years, and now they are no longer willing to fight against the Haihan army on the frontal battlefield. The reason is that they are afraid of the various powerful weapons equipped by the Haihan army. If the two countries established trade relations, the first thing the Manchus would buy would probably be the standard weapons produced by Haihan.
(End of chapter)